"Daily Cardiac" helps us understand consensual sex

[ed. - Inspired by "Daily Cardiac's" lessons:]

[ed. - It should be understood, "Daily Cardiac's" matter-of-fact treatment of Robert's sexuality is only possible because in the mid-1990s Robert was forced to reveal what he had attempted, via all means necessary, to conceal for twenty-five years. Of course, it would be characteristic of Cardiac to suggest "he didn't do a very good job of keeping it secret." But that would not be for lack of trying. Enjoy Cardiac's fantasy!]   "dick moron" posted the following on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 13, 2008:

I had to dig through the old blog pages to find this gem from Daily Cardiac, but it is worth revisiting. This guy has to be Ethan Har-is or a clone. [ed. - or more likely a "team", including Linda T.] Probably not Ethan, since the good “Doctor” is probably overworked prescribing mind-numbing drugs to needy patients in order to keep up with his vigorous FOF donation schedule. ____________________________ Wisdom From DC:

Traveler:

“Can you imagine how being in a sexual relationship that is not quite voluntary and consensual, could exist simultaneously with stunted spirituality?”

This is an important point; a stunted spirituality, as my experience tells me, has little to do with difficult externals or unfavorable circumstances or pressure. In fact it’s often just the opposite; where adversity strengthens spirituality. A stunted spirituality has more to do with individual effort or lack of effort. If we make the correct spiritual efforts we will grow in spirit.

One other point of note: People can say no. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. Like the old drug commercials “Just Say No.” Some people are angry at themselves today because they could not muster the courage to say no and they then transfer that self anger into blame of the asker. There are many ways to say no to the kind of sex Robert asks for. Robert’s role in sex is well documented. He plays the female part with another male. The other male is required to penetrate Robert which necessitates an erect penis. Generally speaking an erect penis is achieved by being aroused sexually. Arousal usually indicates a desire or ability to engage in sex.

If I were a homosexual male being penetrated sexually by another male I would not have cause to believe the partner was being traumatized as the act of penetration would strongly suggest otherwise. I would be more inclined to believe the partner was being, at least to some degree, stimulated sexually.

I’m a heterosexual male with a normal sex drive. There have been a few instances in my life when a female who was attracted to me wanted sex and I was not equally attracted to her. In most of those cases I could not achieve an erection even though a part of me wanted to go through with it. (I should mention it happened much more that I was the one attracted and the female not so much and I never got the chance.)

I’ve also been in situations where there was some other apprehension (pressure) involved and even though I was attracted to someone and the opportunity was there I could not achieve an erection.

I would think that if a male really felt violated, repulsed or put out by the act he would not be able to achieve an erection and that would have settled that. That would have been a loud and clear NO!

This is something to seriously consider when people use the extreme language that they were “raped” by Robert or that the FoF is a “rape factory.”

Fellatio also falls under this same set of conditions.

What about orgasms? Are people manipulated or coerced into having them?

It is also of note to mention that no one has ever lost any normal privileges by saying no to Robert’s requests for sex. No one has been sent from the school, sent to a faraway center, humiliated, ostracized by other students, prevented from attending meetings or events, or have been restricted in any other way for saying no.

_____________ And the holocaust never happened either.

[ed. - For more lessons with "Daily Cardiac", read "The Queen of the Night moonlights in forensics".]

"Daily Cardiac", defending the realm

[ed. - I have posted much of this discussion, as it's a fascinating example of the Fellowship's duly-assigned foil engaging the ex-Fellowship bloggers. It offers a clear example of the teaching's dogma, and the frustration and anger it provokes. Daily Cardiac was identified by one blogger as the Fellowship's Linda Kaplan. It is conceivable, however, that Cardiac is not a Fellowship member, but a former member conducting a "false flag operation."]

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 1, 2008:

I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications. But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.

And for a culture sprung from puritan origins sex is a major taboo. In schools it is a common occurrence for many taboos to be pierced.

 
"Draco" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 1, 2008:

Here we go again. DC ["Daily Cardiac"], Robert himself doesn’t claim that he is teaching his students when he has sex with them. He usually appeals to C Influence. “C Influence want you to have sex with me.” And if the “student” doesn’t want to have sex with the “teacher,” “you’re being a denying force to C Influence.”

Sometimes he makes a more specific justification: “You give me energy so I can give the School energy.”

Sometimes he makes comments like “I am very grateful for all the men who have been my lovers; it has really eased my suffering”.

"Ellen" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 1, 2008:

#15, Daily Cardiac [above]

I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications.

And how would you determine the difference between a valid and an invalid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego, etc…? What qualities would you look for in the teacher wielding such a “tool”? Selflessness? Lack of personal interest or reward from the encounter? Objectivity? Openness to both males and females? Regardless of age or personal attraction?

But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.

Excuse me? How would you assess what is sadistic, humiliating or demeaning? Are there objective standards? Are such standards at all related to who a person really is (in essence)? Or to the acquisition of the two year old (the personality)? Does essence decide one’s sexual orientation? Does essence gladly urinate on another person? Does essence naturally defecate on another person? Does essence force itself upon another? And does an enlightened teacher possess intimate knowledge of all the skeletons in every aspirant’s closet so as to avoid confusing his own self interests with those of his student’s?

Just asking how you understand the terms that you use here.

"Wouldn't You Like To Know" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 1, 2008:

But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way. [quoting "Daily Cardiac", above]

Dear Daily Heart Failure ["Daily Cardiac"],

Besides reinforcing these words:

‘You either have no idea what is going on, or you are a complete idiot, or both…’ ~20. Panorea [blogger]

I would go on to tell you that there are many, yet untold here on the blog, true stories of ‘sadistic, humiliating or demeaning’ actions taken by both Robert Earl Burton, personally, and his band of flying monkeys, generally, that would demonstrate the depth and breadth of these institutionalized (read: formatory) patterns of the Fellowship of Friends, over many years and decades, that make it clear just how sick a cult it can be. Your statement is directly proportional to the extent of your ignorance. (And, I am sure you have heard it said, ‘Ignorance is bliss.’) Or, you show just how much you are playing a shill game by being the front person for the Fellowship of Friends’ cruise on the river in North Africa that flows in the opposite direction of most major rivers on the planet, called denial (the Nile). Or, maybe you are just a liar.

The writer of this post could tell some of these stories, from personal experience, that extended well beyond the realm of this hot button topic of ‘kinky sex,’ so that there would be no mistake that the Fellowship of Friends embodies those characteristics of Robert Earl Burton’s being, and callousness, that would best be described, in polite company, as sadomasochistic. The extent to which the queen can behave in a polished and refined manner publicly, does, likewise, the complete opposite in a less revealed manner (hidden and/or private) behind the scenes. Perhaps, you, and your friends, have not been tested yet, personally?

Want to try me on this subject matter, Daily Card Trick? That is a simple enough question, to which you could simply answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to.

"Vena" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 1, 2008:

[Quoting "Panorea":]

“Also, never, but never in a Prospective Student Meeting there has been any mentioning of Sex used as a Tool. It is not one of the WORK I’s, all conservative members of the FOF (and it is full of them!) close eyes and ears in the idea of Robert having Sex with his students. And what kind of sex? It is so pathetic and humiliating when you see them all walking into the Galleria and avoid raising their faces to look at the erased phallus on the ceiling.”

The energy of the group of young men, Robert’s harem, that sits around him during receptions is one of the most alarming and telling representations of all that is sick and depraved in the Fellowship. These men are like zombies. They are full of shame and almost catatonic from depression and self loathing and to make it worse Robert sits there among them gloating and smiling. I believe he actually enjoys their misery. It must give him some perverse sense of power over them. If this is not insensitive and sadistic I don’t know what is. It is one of the final images that took me out of the madness. No one who really sees this situation could possibly stay.
Perhaps circulating a compilation of personal and graphic descriptions of sex with Robert written by the unfortunate victims would finally make people like Daily Cardiac see the absurd and ludicrious nature of their reasoning.

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 2, 2008:

Ellen – 19:

“Take care to keep open house: because in this way some have had angels as their guests, without being conscious of it.” - The Bible

Ellen –

“And how would you determine the difference between a valid and an invalid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego, etc…? What qualities would you look for in the teacher wielding such a “tool”?”

In one word, Results. Results that indicate consciousness.

How did the inn keeper distinguish Angels in disguise from beggars?

For one thing you have to “Keep Open” to the other side of the ledger, which you don’t seem to be including in your equation of RB.

You see one one side which prompted you to go and you appear to be unaware of the side others have seen which prompts them to stay. I am aware of the side you see but I’ve determined it is of a different scale and in comparison to what is given is inconsequential.
In short I know what I’ve received; it is what I came for. I can’t speak for you or anyone else, and whether you know it or not you cannot speak for me; you cannot determine what another has received. If you think you can you are deluding yourself.

If you are content with your choices that is all you have, and it should be all you need. You do not have outside proof of your beliefs as I don’t have of mine. We will all know the whole story of RB and the FoF in due time.

My position is clear and is contained in my posts from page 41 up to now. In short I have contended that the FoF is a real school of awakening, with RB as its enlightened teacher. I also contend that when individuals cease taking/valuing the school’s one and only commodity, presence, the school in turn ceases to make sense to them and they have to leave.

There is nothing odd or difficult to follow in this reasoning. I believe you are judging incorrectly based on appearances. As a poster said recently “if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it’s probably a duck.” That is based on seeing from the outside in. That works 9 out of 10 times, or 99 out of 100, but the one time appearances fail will be the time you mistake an angel for a beggar.

Turn on the lights in the house and the monstrous shapes all become regular household items; like a shirt tossed over a lamp shade.

You do not see my position as plausible.

Your position is that the FoF is a destructive cult run by a sex crazed sociopath. Even if we go by appearances only that is not very plausible.

A sex crazed sociopath gathers a dozed or so ex-hippies and moves to the wilderness of Oregon House, and parlays that into a multimillion dollar world wide organization that attracts good householders from every walk of life and every major country (about 17,000 so far) as well as attracting world class musicians/recording artists and singers to perform concerts for them.

As well as carving out a world class estate winery, where manzanita bushes once grew, that has won the most prestigious gold medal in existence [ed. - quite an exaggeration!]. As well as an olive oil that was awarded the designation of best in North America and one of the 10 best in the world.(the first American one to break into the world’s ten best ever) Not to mention one of the most beautiful classical European gardens in America. An organization has existed and developed for nearly 40 years. That has co-existed harmoniously with its neighbors all this time. I could go on and on.

Just going by appearances your position is not very plausible. Have you ever been in the presence of a convicted sociopath? If you had you would see well the implausibility of your position.

But I am not going by appearances; I am judging the FoF by what I have received internally, on a spiritual level. That is why I stay.

"Ellen" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 2, 2008:

I’ve read your response to my query of #19 to define your terms, and I must confess my stupefication. Leroy, you did not answer my questions, but rather proceeded to put words into my mouth which you then went on to refute! Nice soapbox, my friend, so your agenda to propagandize is pretty clear. But the readers here will certainly able to put two and two together (to make four, not five, six or ten). Once again, because you have done this to my posts before, I plead not-guilty. Please, get it straight.

Instead, I repeat:

And how would you determine the difference between a valid and an invalid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego, etc…

and

How would you assess what is sadistic, humiliating or demeaning? Are there objective standards (i.e., relating to essence and personality)?

*******************************

Leroy, the reason your answer of the simple word “results” is an unacceptable response is only because both valid and invalid teachers can produce “states of consciousness” in their students. (Find out for yourself.) Both valid and invalid teachers can found spiritual communities. (Find out for yourself.) Both valid and invalid teachers can spawn all sorts of projects, businesses and/or publications. (Find out for yourself.) So, my question was an invitation to dig deeper. I threw no mudballs. For the record, I continue to protest.

D.C.: “I also contend that when individuals cease taking/valuing the school’s one and only commodity, presence, the school in turn ceases to make sense to them and they have to leave.”

Excuse me??? How could you possibly know??? As Crouching Tiger just pointed out, you continue to insist on the validity of your own experience in relation to presence as your only guide (and I won’t refute or deny it), while you simultaneously use that same guide to judge others! What kind of presence is that? Seems to me you are mixing yours (and mine!) beloved presence with some heavy-duty programming. Leroy, check your bucket…

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 3, 2008:

Ellen – 83:

“The Lewis Carroll School had to become a Charter School because the Fellowship children hated it and moved out of it as soon as they were old enough to say NO MORE to their brainwashed parents.”

I hated the schools I went to also. A lot of children hate going to school period.The high school aged children naturally wanted to go somewhere where there were more than 10 students in their class. That’s understandable.

The charter school is a win win proposition; the community (not only FoF children) benefit greatly. This would not have happened without the Lewis Carroll School. The LCS begot the Charter school.

By the way; the LCS still exists as a pre-school open to all local residents.

The winery has become more of an elite operation as it downsized. The recent writeups by experts like Mat Kramer and Parker rave about the wines. With wine making less is often more. Think Lafitte Rothschild vs. Gallo.

It was Robert who decided to start a vineyard as well as an olive grove.I believe his intent all along was other students besides himself would actually make the wine and olive oil.

Bruce – 63:

“I don’t have any experience with the olive oil, but while the winery produced a few notable wines they also produced some utter crap. I remember seeing a large number of half bottles of a botrytis wine being sold for $9.00. It was the flattest desert wine ever made. Also the red “ink” as it was known when we were all but forced to buy it because nobody wanted it “out there”.”

The “Ink” (circa 1980 – 84 during it’s heyday as the wine poured at lunch for free and at the wine bar for dinner for about .50 a glass), as it was affectionately known to students was selling for over $200 a magnum in L A in the mid nineties before it sold out.

That’s typical of great wines; they just get better with age.

[ed. - "Ink" = Callaway 1975 Petite Sirah. "Son of Ink" = Callaway 1976 Petite Sirah. Although these labels were also casually applied to early RVW product blended with Petite Sirah. After departing Callaway, "Winemaster" Karl Werner was offered the remaining inventory of these wines, as Callaway management had decided the red wine program had been a failed experiment and would in the future focus on whites. Recollections are that the wines were purchased for $2/750ml. Both 750ml and 1.5L formats were purchased. The wine poured "at lunch for free" was a blended version, since the "Ink", by itself, was nearly unpalatable.]

"elena" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 3, 2008:

Daily Cardiac,

Even Girard would cry if he heard you lying like that about the winery that Robert destroyed like everything else that was potentially good in the Fellowship. The decadence of the winery is a reflection of the decadence of the “grapevine” and the esoteric principle that inspired people to work.

In the winery, like in the Arts and the Lewis Carroll School together with anything Robert Burton touched, the lack of aim and consistency is so obvious that they are all failed enterprises. The fact that they never functioned with coherence and never connected to “life” successfully reveals how misconstrued they were. Many wonderful people worked in each one of these projects trying to give them a North of their own because Robert’s vision never moved beyond puritanical mannerisms without strength which in the long run consumed their personal effort as much as the enterprise.

The Lewis Carroll School had to become a Charter School because the Fellowship children hated it and moved out of it as soon as they were old enough to say NO MORE to their brainwashed parents. The winery has been decadent since the beginning. It couldn’t sell its wines even with all the prizes it received. It was a bastard child of the Arc of Corruption that was always disconnected from “the Work” and “Life”. Robert made them to make money, not meaning and they all functioned like pieces of Fellowship that had nothing to do with it in reality: Just an excuse to get people to keep busy and believe that they were building an Arc for humanity! The Olive Oil seems to be making a few houses for private students.

It is not surprising that in the end they served to make a bunch of alcoholics and workaholics who keep ever so busy so as to never have enough time to realize that they are as good as dead.
Now those enterprises survive on those who are trying to get some cash out of them convinced that they can still get a few cents from the enormous amounts of money that thousands of people put into building an Arc. They are the living vultures that feed on the decadence of the Fellowship and keep it running in the hope that they’ll still manage to shear another bunch of innocent lambs alive. Their attitude is that they can steal as much as they want while it lasts. They are mining the Fellowship with the same greed that Robert raped the believers, but they don’t realize that no one can’t drink that much water without drowning.

"elena" continued:

Yes, and it was also Robert’s idea to destroy it and they started tearing it apart until they found out the land was worth millions more with the vineyard on it. But the winery is dead like the School and the Lewis Carroll School, you’re just a bunch of ghosts living in imagination about an ideal that never existed. Make the best of it though, as I said before, the likes of you make slaves everywhere you go, when you start starving you might still find a few grapes to survive on.

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 4, 2008:

Dick Moron – 121:

“So now RVW provides a nice side hobby with perks for Gi_eon Beanstalk while he runs his own private winery business. As for the Apollo Olive Oil Company, this is a private venture that apparently feeds off of FOF free labor and resources for the gain of certain individuals like Steven Dumb_ck.”

If the serfs and peasants don’t rebel against this exploitation, I guess things will keep on keeping on until the money runs out.”

Several medals, including gold, at Vinexpo (the Oscars for wine awards), and the first American olive oil to make the the top ten in all the world speaks for itself – quite a coup for a destructive cult’s hobby.

[ed. - with 100s of equally prestigious competitions each year, "several medals, including gold, at Vinexpo", is fairly insignificant in the industry, save in the producer's minds.]

"Draco" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 4, 2008:

Frank [blogger] must be a current FOFer. He’s doing the passive-aggressive thing which other members have done before. Insult everyone and then sit back and tell us that he’s shown us what we are when we get angry. I don’t particularly like Bruce’s insults, but Bruce has regularly participated in the discussions. If Frank doesn’t post a piece of discussion of argument or experience he should be banned. Trolling isn’t acceptable.

As for RVW and Apollo Olive Oil: both are high-quality products. AOO continued to employ someone after he left the FOF, which is a move towards basic decency and minimum standards of business practice. RVW would collapse if Gideon pulled out. REB would only drink French wine for years (gifts of wine from students were sold off) and can’t drink much wine now because of his increased intake of antidepressants. I remember Robert at a dinner commenting,

“We’re producing delicious fine wines which are going to be guzzled by greedy people in life who don’t know what they’re tasting.”

The LCS worked well enough for younger children but didn’t provide an adequate level of education for the older ones. The older children were all very happy to leave the LCS and go to schools in Marysville and Grass Valley. It’s another Fellowship white elephant and, even though it’s now a charter school, it would need to develop considerably to avoid going under.

Daily Cardiac again: Walter had personal experiences of Robert repeating himself and forgetting what he had told his students to do. I suppose you may well argue that this doesn’t intrinsically have any connection to consciousness or lack of the same. But what has Meher Baba to do with this? By plowing through the lives of “conscious beings” you can justify just about anything–rape, murder, betrayal, persecution, you name it. But it You post very little of your own experience with Robert.

Robert’s approach to self-remembering makes everything else seem valueless, hence your shrugging off of the coercive sex, shunning, money-laundering, greed, etc.

Your valuation

"Draco" continues:

I didn’t feel that I quite expressed what I wanted to say in my last post. Basically. DC’s responses to criticisms of Robert say “so what?” If that doesn’t work, then he adopts the FOF equivalent of holocaust denial, “I don’t believe it.” Does Robert coerce heterosexual men into sex with him? So what? Did that involve anal fisting? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. Endless repeated to block any possibility of genuine feeling or compassion.

"Draco"' continues some more

I heard that in the 1990s Robert was sending potential sexual partners off to have AIDS tests before he had sex with them. MG was responsible for organising this. Can anyone confirm this?

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Disccusion blog, December 4, 2008:

WR ["WhaleRider"] – “I would argue that your associations about “being present” when gazing at said palm tree only serve to put you into a different form of imagination…the illusion that you are now more “awake” when before you were not and that you are part of some elite group of people imagining you have an exclusive connection to God.”

There is presence and there is imagination. They are not the same; they occupy different planes. Water cannot be both hot and cold. It can be luke warm, but not both hot and cold at the same time.

Your examples are not valid. What you are doing is putting words into my virtual “mouth.”
Of course one can be in imagination thinking one is present. But one can also BE present, or not be present.

Your earlier post about squares was one long attempt to devalue a tool for consciousness when it’s obvious you don’t value it enough to actually put it to the test. You immediately judge anything about RB or the FoF deficient because your mind has been closed to all but criticism. You are predisposed to think in a certain way about RB/FoF because you have already rejected him/it.

If you understood RB or the FoF you would still be a member.

A person cannot understand a conscious school and leave it.

It would like deciding to stop breathing. You cannot do it naturally, you need aids like a rope around your neck.

People decide to leave schools because they don’t understand them. Or because they find they do not want to make the payment necessary to become more awake. It’s always about payment, an invisible law, much like F D. Everyone wants to be awake, but not everyone wants to pay for it. They want consciousness and the status quo, but they cannot have both at the same time; they cannot be both hot and cold at the same time.

“Everyone wants to be Hercules, but without the Labors”

You can “prove” anything with words, or “disprove” anything. Yet in reality proof has little to do with words. Solomon devised a way to go beyond words. And we all have a Solomon in us if we are honest enough to look into truth.

I’m the only one on the blog honest enough to make the claim that nothing here can be proved or disproved.

If that distinguishes me it is only because you have handed me that title by virtue of your own self deception. Don’t confuse your position with truth. It may contain elements of truth and it may contain elements of falsehood. You need to sort out one form the other. With consciousness there are different scales. A person can be aware of his dreams and still not be in the third state. Public speakers/actors/politicians have trained themselves to be aware of what their hands are doing or the inflection in their voice much more than others, but that does not mean their states are higher.

"Draco" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 5, 2008:

DC 193 ["Daily Cardiac", post 193]

“I don’t think salvation has anything to do with up to date teaching payments at the time of death.

I also don’t think that people become any smarter or more enlightened (graduate) once they make their last teaching payment.

Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence.”

DRACO: Well I’d like to remind you about what you wrote earlier on this page,

DC 165

“If you understood RB or the FoF you would still be a member.

A person cannot understand a conscious school and leave it.

It would like deciding to stop breathing. You cannot do it naturally, you need aids like a rope around your neck.

People decide to leave schools because they don’t understand them. Or because they find they do not want to make the payment necessary to become more awake. It’s always about payment, an invisible law, much like F D.

Everyone wants to be awake, but not everyone wants to pay for it. They want consciousness and the status quo, but they cannot have both at the same time; they cannot be both hot and cold at the same time. ”

You are saying that people who leave the FOF are not following the “truth path of presence”, (from whence cometh salvation). This is exactly the same as saying that being up to date with teaching payments guarantees salvation. If you don’t make your TPs, you are out. If you are out you didn’t understand the FOF or weren’t willing to make the payment. So you aren’t following the “true path of presence”. So you won’t be saved when you die. In specific FOF terms this means that you will go the moon or to the end of the consciousness queue or into eternal recurrence, rather than having your soul received by angels when you die, placed for 10,000 years in Limbo (which resembles the cellars of Chateau Lafit) and then put into another lifetime until you eventually get put into the Celestial City of Paradise where you can read the lost works of Sophocles.

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 6, 2008:

Draco – 208 [above]:

DC -“I don’t think salvation has anything to do with up to date teaching payments at the time of death.

I also don’t think that people become any smarter or more enlightened (graduate) once they make their last teaching payment.

Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence.”

Draco – “You are saying that people who leave the FOF are not following the “truth path of presence”, (from whence cometh salvation). This is exactly the same as saying that being up to date with teaching payments guarantees salvation. If you don’t make your TPs, you are out. If you are out you didn’t understand the FOF or weren’t willing to make the payment. So you aren’t following the “true path of presence”. So you won’t be saved when you die.

One problem encountered when you read my posts is that you are starting out by seeing how you can deconstruct them, trying to find the inconsistencies in my thinking instead of just reading what is written and evaluating it based on that.

What I said was simple and you needn’t add conditions to it.

What you are engaging in is called an Ad Hominem argument. It happens so much on the blog that I hardly recall when it does not happen. And People are brazen about engaging in it.

Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence. This is what I believe.

Obviously I feel the FoF provides me with the environment that puts me in the best position to carry this out. But my writing out a TP check does not change me. The efforts to be present, to transform friction, to accept what I cannot change; all these things contribute to whatever salvation is in store for me.

"Draco" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 6, 2008:

DC ["Daily Cardiac"], my comments were not ad hominem, but yes I certainly deconstruct your arguments. Robert’s view of salvation is well known–die in good standing the FOF. What I am saying is that this view (and orthodox FOF views in general) lies behind the arguments that you present, but you avoid presenting this directly, so you skirt around beliefs that are unacceptable to those outside of the FOF and use a framework of spurious logic to work around these awkward aspects. And that’s why I deconstruct your posts.

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 6, 2008:

Draco – 266: “you skirt around beliefs that are unacceptable to those outside of the FOF and use a framework of spurious logic to work around these awkward aspects. And that’s why I deconstruct your posts.”

You may be giving yourself too much credit; it remains to be proved whether you succeed in deconstructing anything. What I said was this –

“you are starting out by seeing how you can deconstruct them, trying to find the inconsistencies in my thinking instead of just reading what is written and evaluating it based on that.”

It is proved (by yourself) that deconstruction is your aim. And what prey tell absolves you from ad hominem? Your mere stating that you are not engaging in it? If anyone is being spurious it’s you. You refuse to acknowledge that your views are at best just as subjective as mine. 

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 6, 2008:

dick moron – 277 [blogger and post number]: “Do you consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?”

They do not have vocal cords, or any kind of cellular traits. But they are master communicators.

“Do [you] consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?”

I do.

“Do you believe that Leonardo da Vinci rides around on Burton’s shoulder like Burton has claimed?”

Metaphorically yes. I do believe Influence C has the ability to make Hansbrough miss ten open lay ups in a row. After all they invented the patten for Hansbrough.

"dick moron" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 6, 2008:

Daily Cardiac:

I do believe Influence C has the ability to make Hansbrough miss ten open lay ups in a row. After all they invented the patten for Hansbrough.

That’s funny! But it won’t happen. But N.C. State did beat the Phi Slamma Jamma Houston team with Olaijawon and Drexler to win it all in 1983. Ask Bob, he watched with me and he was pretty pissed at the outcome.

"Draco" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 7, 2008:

DC, 267, “And what prey tell absolves you from ad hominem? Your mere stating that you are not engaging in it?”

And what makes it Ad Hominem apart from you asserting that it is? All I know of you is what you write in your posts and that you are a Fellowship member. Your FOF membership gives a context to the text of your messages. (And incidentally I agree with the Sheikh that trying to reveal the identity of contributors is unaccaptable.) I deconstruct your arguments because your arguments depend on the structure that you give them. This is specific to your messages. I don’t bother deconstructing Frank’s messages because they don’t rely on misleading pseudologic for their effect.

“If anyone is being spurious it’s you. You refuse to acknowledge that your views are at best just as subjective as mine.”

This is just a red herring. You use the notion of subjectivity as a bludgeon to flatten other people’s point of view. Your posts indicate that you do not see us all as equally subjective (an approach that is difficult for anyone to maintain) , but that your FOF membership gives you an outlook that is absolutely superior to that of ex-members–just like Robert tells you.

"WhaleRider" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 13, 2008:

Daily Challenge ["Daily Cardiac", blogger]:

“As far as I know Robert has not done any of the above.”

Burton has hissy fits over cuff links, gave Troy herpes, and sent Richard the hairdresser to die a lonely death of AIDS in Hawaii.

I’ll say it again, your ignorance is appalling! You spend so much time in the “divine present” that you wear blinders about the past. How blissful for you!

“Enlightened beings are in the direct service of higher forces/God/Angels/ C Influence, whatever you want to call the spirit world.”

So by your defintion that would make George W. Bush by his own assertion an enlightened being, too.

“..because if he is…”

That’s a big “if” partner. By the same token, what if Burton is a fraud? It boils down to belief, not verification.

Christ said – “I come not for peace, but with a sword.”

Funny, I said the same about posting on this blog. I’ll remember that one next time, thanks.

“Enlightened beings, like everyone else, are playing a role. The only difference is they are aware that it’s a role, and they play it better than most others would play it”… for themselves.

You are right. The trouble is, totally indoctrinated followers like you don’t realize that you are projecting the role of your inner guru onto Burton who is exploiting this weakness and having a gay ole’ time on your dime.

In the same manner that the hard core followers have totally given their responsibility over to Burton, they are so indoctrinated that the responsibility for actually waking them up now lies in the hands of the ex-followers whom have awakened. So be it.

“The masses idolize Christ or the Buddha, but if those worshipers were in the presence of their human forms for one minute they would jump out their own skin trying to get away.”

And you know this because you were there…?

I’ll tell you a true story about Mother Teresa. A famous person contacted her once asking if they could travel to India to study with her and help the poor. Mother Teresa said, “if you really want to help the poor, take the money you would’ve spent on the airline ticket and give it to the poor in your neighborhood.”

Enlightened beings actually help people in need without exploiting them. That’s how the role is played well.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Ouch, my head hurts! But hey, in time the Berlin Wall eventually came down, too.

The abortion solution and Robert's Fellowship family planning

 "Purchasing awakening" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, July 25, 2007 at 2:42 a.m.:

Another story.

I learned that earlier in his reign Robert asked married women not to have kids and if they already did to give them away. Many apparently listened and obeyed. Apparently Linda was persuading pregnant women to have an abortion “to follow the will of the Teacher”. Gently ask older female students in FOF what happened to their kids.

Also teacher gave a task to students to euthanise or give away their non-pedigree canine companions. Many obeyed and killed or abandoned their dogs. Please read Stella’s story.
Then not so long ago he ordered to kill all black cats around the property because of his superstitions (apparently he thought black cats bring bad luck and are connected to the devil).
These are acts of a conscious being #7 (or higher), the teacher.

"A former female student from long ago" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, July 25, 2007 at 4:12 a.m.:

Re: Purchasing Awakening 273 & Bruce 276 “Women & Bearing Children” [bloggers and post numbers]

I never understood the few, lovely, women I met who had left their children in the care of others at the behest of the FOF leaders. Please note that the directives may have come from Robert after Center Directors told him of situations that might threaten the student’s devotion and or payments. (Darn those silly outside influences.)

I had an abortion before joining the FOF and emotionally and physically, it is not a simple procedure. I have since had difficulty in giving birth to my children because of scar tissue from the first abortion and had complications that have resulted in several surgeries. The results of my own decision have caused life threaten hospital procedures and months away from my newborn children. Enough said, it was my decision but what about the women who followed orders from FOF headquarters.

I knew of a visit from Fran, an older women, who was sent to escort a happily married women to a hospital for a late term abortion of healthy twins. Why was this married student in a happy relationship guided to go to the hospital to abort two healthy fetuses? Robert loved the beautiful, handsome husband and it was during the mid/late 70s when the School could not afford to have students be distracted by the emotional or expensive aspects of children.

This potential mother and father were in pain but followed Robert’s directives – it was not a pretty situation. Years later Robert got his guy back and the wife was left to earn money outside of Renaissance while her husband was on salary.

"if memory serves" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, July 26, 2007 at 9:50 p.m.:

Despite life’s busyness, I repeatedly come out to my office to read some more of the blog, uncomfortable at spending so much time doing so, but realizing on a deeper level its healing potential. It when I catch up to the current postings that I most strongly feel all of you out there in the world thinking about and contributing to this amazing thing and send my heartfelt thanks to all contributors, silent or vocal. Much of the time, the memories feel like they are from a long time ago, happening to someone else. Today, I am startled by how immediate the feelings are, you who are writing today words that evoke feelings today felt now by me.

Whalerider, at the end of your post 417, I cried deeply and to those who know me, know I am usually more reserved and cry rarely. An internalized phrase from my occasional therapist ”follow the feelings” helped overcome my immediate impulse to just move along to something else. Most days, I’ve felt so detached, like I can relate, but it isn’t really MY story. Today, I felt like “that girl”.

I loved James G. my first boyfriend in the fof, mid-70’s. We lived in a teepee up the hill with a red couch and carpets. James was a poet, a sweet gentle man who went head to head with Robert. I remember my confusion when I realized I was competing with my teacher for the affection of my boyfriend. Confusion, sadness, anger, uncomprehending shock. James left the group and I regret that I cannot access more clearly what happened. There is so much shame mixed in with the excitement of having found a “school of evolution”. I’m sure I did not talk about the shameful parts and just moved on with the “evolution” parts.

Being a female “second class citizen”, I settled for “second-best” closeness to rb, by getting involved with Thomas E. There was a big triangular struggle going on there, too, but again, the shame shrouding the situation did not allow us to talk openly about it and I remember just being very confused. Thomas and I fought often about it and eventually moved farther and farther apart. I remember calling him from the pay phone in the Lodge while he was traveling with rb to tell him I was pregnant and him telling me to just take care of it. I knew it wasn’t wanted, by him, by me, by Robert, so was shortly thereafter driven to Yuba City by Fran for an abortion. I know I’m leaving out the next chapter, but one step at a time.

I had permission to play the piano in the Goethe Academy during lunch when no one was there. It was one of the happiest hours of my days. When Robert would come smilingly back after lunch in the company of those from his entourage, his face would fall upon seeing me, and although it is not exactly the reptilian conversion Cyclops referred to in his powerful post above, that look of revulsion, disappointment, annoyance was one that I and many other women were on the receiving end on many occasions.

One other memory from my days of a woman in the company of men around the Blake Cottage/Goethe Academy was sadly watching while RB walked around and around the outside perimeter of the lawn trying to convince one of his wonderful young men that he and his lovely girlfriend/or wife, can’t remember the timing, must not have a child, and that in fact they must have an abortion. I had an opportunity to see this sad childless couple years later (when I was “out” and they still “in” thus we didn’t converse) and my heart has always gone out to them.

My tears are for you, Whalerider, Cyclops, THAT GIRL, Joseph G., Richard M, Elena, and many others who lost faith in themselves, were deceived, coerced, had abortions, gave their children away, shared their husbands with another, for all the suffering you experienced. They are for me, for the teenager I once was, for the world I’m leaving to my children. May tears of joy fall once again on us all.

Susan

"Bruce" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, October 3, 2007 at 6:33 p.m.:

ton [blogger]

It’s interesting that one of may major arguments with RB revolved around your’s and M’s drama. M. told me and my wife (at the time) about RB’s request to terminate the pregnancy. I was profoundly struck by the effect it was having on M. I told her I thought it was lunacy to take this kind of advice.

Somehow L.T [Linda Tulisso, now Linda Kaplan] found out about MY advice to M. and approached my wife (L. knew better than to even approach me about anything, so she took the cowards way and tried to intimidate my wife into having me stay out of her business).

I went to RB and stated that L.T. was not to even approach my wife again or I would be gone the next day (of course at that time it carried some weight because I was involved deeply in RB’s whim and fad of the moment). Then we got around to discussing abortion advice (and his current pet project- advising women who got pregnant to have a hysterectomy so they wouldn’t have to worry about those unsightly and distracting pregnancies. I told him he simply couldn’t throw that kind of shit out there. Of course his pat retort was “when your level of being changes, you’ll see that I’m right”. What an asshole. All that, and convincing couples to give away children that they had “out of FOF”.

I can feel by blood pressure rising even now.

"'ton" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, October 4, 2007 at 7:34 p.m.:

when m & i lived at kevin kelly’s house we were your “next-door” neighbors. i know that m developed a friendship with you and your wife during that phase but didn’t know that she had confided in you about the terror of her situation… it makes sense that she would turn to you and “your m” with the problem she faced.

“my m” fought valiantly against the power that was forcing her to act against her will. she fought it the only way she could, mostly with tears and verbal protestations. but there was little sympathy for her plight since it was the will of “the teacher” that she abort the pregnancy. Sharon s, Linda, and other rb puppets were brought in to arrange the operation in L.A. and to try to convince m that the abortion was the right thing to do…

the explanation from the horse’s ass had something to do with the timing of the pregnancy, that the child would not be born on “the ark.” what outrageous bullshit!!! “the teacher” rationalized the whole thing based on the dire “prophecies” which at the time i believed… now i see that the predictions were nothing more than fear-mongering and another means of mind-control.

i’m not a “right-to-lifer” by any means, i believe it’s a woman’s right to choose what to do in the case of pregnancy. but given the situation and circumstances, m had no choice! she was coerced from the beginning, and i blame myself for this…. we should have just fled the scene then and there, but i was deeply brain-washed.

I’ve written previously that my “suspicion” at the time concerning the motivation behind the whole thing was jealous revenge… i left the academy and married m (you took the pictures of our wedding there at renaissance). i mentioned in a previous post that i went to miles with my concerns and suspicions — the next “conscious being” and already almost man # 5… what absolute rubbish!! i found no support from him, he backed “the teacher.” as a “task” from the teacher, i thought it was essential to convince m that it was the right thing to do…. i was just another “little eichman.”

this is stuff that’s been buried for a long time and it’s heart-rending to re-live… it makes me feel physically ill.

I was there at the hospital holding her hand after the abortion, trying to console her… (what a colossal fool i am), she could not be consoled, any words i might have uttered went unheard. the intent of the abortion worked as planned — by siding with “the teacher” i destroyed my wife’s trust in me and too, the marriage. I’ve written before, that my complicity in this criminal act is personally THE most damning event of my fof experience. it’s a sin i’ve lived with for many years and i’ll go to my grave with it… there’s hell to pay. i loathe myself for my part in it and i have to wonder how a human being responsible for this situation many times over can possibly live with “itself” ?!? it’s completely monstrous!

in other posts, i’ve briefly sketched my difficulties when i left the fof… i lived a dissolute and self-destructive life, i slept on the pavement at night and aimlessly wandered the streets by day, like “wind along the waste.” later i realized that this was the manifestation of a strong death-wish, the humiliation of that kick-in-the balls courtesy of “the teacher” completely destroyed my will to live and i can say now, “but for the grace of god” and the loving support of a few earth-angels, i should be already, a long time in the grave.

thank you for listening to my story

"Daily Cardiac" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, November 17, 2008:

Elena – 65/72 [blogger, blog page and post number]:

The FoF offers one product, and that is presence/self-remembering. So it’s a question of priorities. If someone values presence over the form that contains presence then esoteric schools make sense and are even vital for those individuals. If someone does not value presence above everything else then schools make no sense. Being in a school of presence and not putting presence first is the worst case scenario, as the higher in one will not be fed nor will the lower.
Based on my own experiences those who value presence first thrive in the school. That does not mean they agree with everything or understand everything that goes on; it just means their priorities are in order for them to succeed spiritually.

I’ve been listening to people’s thoughts on the blog and answering from my heart, that the main disconnect with ex members is that they do not consider or respect the needs and laws of the spirit world. They do not get the scale correct, they do not distinguish between the different scales/levels.They do not remember that spirit supersedes matter and thought, is greater than matter and thought; and must be given priority over matter and thought.

Elena – “Could you, Mr. Robert Burton, or any of his followers, explain how separating mothers from their children is an expression of Consciousness?”

This can be an expression of consciousness when it is determined to be what’s best for the mother’s spiritual evolution, or for the school’s evolution.

Generally children have not formed a magnetic center and are not ready to engage in a life dedicated to self remembering. These same issues probably came up in other schools and will again in future schools.

Actually the fact that Robert did not allow children in the school is one proof the FoF is not a cult. Cults are quite happy to absorb children into the fold as it’s a good age to be indoctrinated.

In most of the cases of mothers relinquishing care of their children to family or spouses it has not been determined if anyone, mothers or children, were really harmed by this exercise.

For one thing this exercise was part of the school’s early years, and has not happened, that I know of, for close to 30 years.

Now what really did happen in most cases? It’s not like people left their babies on a stranger’s doorstep. Possibly in all cases the children went to live with grandparents or the father.

Do you know how much this happens in today’s world, how many mothers willingly give their children to a spouse or family? Do you know how many young couples give their children to their parents to raise while they pursue a career. Sometimes both parents have to work and they have no choice. Where is the brutality in this?

What was Apollo like then? It was a thicket of brush with two dilapidated buildings. People lived in tents exclusively on FoF property, worked 12 + hours, 7 days a week. Is this an environment for children? On one level Robert was being humane for not allowing children on the property back then.

As far as separating:

“Members from their families,
Member’s from their cultures,
Members from their previous friends,
Members from their functions,
Members from their bodies, their minds, their emotions and their sexuality?”

People made personal choices. All of the above happens in life on a routine basis to tens of millions of people.

How many students were helped out of a third world country by the FoF? How many were overjoyed for the opportunity. Many of them are ex students today, still enjoying the freedoms they gained as a result of them being in the FoF. How many foreigners married Americans through the FoF and made a new life for themselves here?

You have spoken of abortions in the past, supposedly prompted by Robert. It’s easy to make claims but how are the claims substantiated? I’ve never heard anyone’s name mentioned in that regard? And if names are mentioned what does it prove? Abortion is legal. It is legal by society’s law. Morally/spiritually we don’t know for sure when the soul comes into the fetus. But I would think an all knowing and compassionate deity would monitor and consider well the needs of unborn infants, and not leave the fate of a soul in the hands of men.

It can however be proven how many lives the FoF is directly responsible for helping to bring into the world. How many children were conceived by students who would never have met each other without joining the FoF?

Is it fair to say these individuals, and their parents, owe a debt of gratitude to the FoF? How many of these children of students/ex students are there? Hundreds, and each one verifiable; their existence not a question of debate.

How many viable careers were formed through training received in the FoF? Do any or all of these things count as good fortune arising from participation in the Fellowship of Friends?

As far as separating from previous friends, I wonder what percentage of previous friends remain in the average person’s life?

People in life constantly turn their backs on previous friends by changing schools, growing up, changing jobs, cities, spouses.

How many millions of people disown their parents and siblings, entirely without the help of the FoF? Gurjieff said about our world that it’s a pain factory.

Suffering exists in every corner of the world; independent of the FoF.

Why focus your complaints on a measly 1700 people? And who precisely are you complaining to? A deity? Do you think they haven’t heard you by now? Do you think they have somehow lost track of this notorious organization run by a sociopath impersonating themselves for the last 40 years? And if not to a Deity then to whom? A government? Robert Burton has not broken any laws.

The FoF is a rape factory? One of the many ironies of the blog is that ex members fail to consider the spiritual realm and point to Robert’s failings based on ordinary man’s moral code, but when it comes to rape, they disregard what constitutes rape in the eyes of most governments, and more importantly, in the eyes of reasonable men using common sense, and invent their own laws when judging Robert Burton.

Abuse of power? This is indeed a mighty joke. What individual with even modest power has not abused it at one time or another? In sexual matters has there ever been a rich, or famous man who has not tried to use his wealth or status for his own enjoyment?

Has there ever been a beautiful woman who has not used her beauty to manipulate men? I’m sure there have been exceptions to the rule. But as a rule people use their status to get what they want.

In terms of conscious teachers and sex, it’s a much more complex issue. No one knows Robert Burton’s motives in that regard. To be conscious implies having will, and if one has will one can apply that will when and where necessary. Conscious teachers can also use their status for any reason they deem appropriate to higher aims (Conscious beings live for themselves, but they also are in service to higher schools first and foremost.)

There is one thing I have understood in this area and that is the majority of reasoning I read on the blog by ex members would not fit into today’s FoF. So if Robert’s lifestyle is being used as a tool by higher forces to force people’s hand on whether to stay or go, I can see it’s an effective tool.

Those who manage to keep presence as the top priority have stayed, while those who have placed something above being present (I think of Old Fish’s list of joyful things) have departed.

Elena, I am also certain of another fact. You have already condemned Robert Burton and the FoF. Nothing anyone says will change that. And any information you hear, no matter how factual and / or positive will have to be turned around in your mind and made into whatever fits your extreme position.

That being the case can anyone believe the things you say about Girard, or Dorothy? With all of the hate you have displayed on the blog can you be impartial about what you experienced, or have you molded those experiences into whatever fits your preexisting position.

Regarding Dorothy I have visited homes where she lived after she was in an advanced stage of her disease and I saw her to be well cared for. I know the the people who cared for her and they certainly don’t fit your profile of Dorothy’s caregivers.

One of Dorothy’s last requests when she was still in control of her thought processes was to live the remainder of her days at Apollo. The school made good on her request.

Dorothy was not the FoF’s responsibility to care for. If the school is as heartless as you characterize, it could have easily put her into a car and drove her to her son’s house in L.A., knocked on his door and said here she is, she’s your responsibility, not ours. But that did not happen.

On more that one occasion you said when you received Dorothy into your care she had not taken a bath for over a year and her fingernails were inches long and packed with dirt.

This statement is highly suspect. It does not fit human behavior. Even if those people neglected Dorothy, they would not jeopardize their reputation by giving her to you in that condition. Most people would, if nothing else, inner consider too much or would be in too much vanity to allow someone to know the degree of their irresponsibility.

If a friend calls me unexpectedly on the phone and says he or she is on the way to see me, I will probably do a little tidying up, wash a dish or two, pick up my socks off the floor, because I want not to be thought a slob. This is human nature. What you say makes no sense at all. Almost anyone would cover up that kind of neglect.

Also knowing how you felt at the time from your own writings, I can’t believe you would not have documented Dorothy’s condition by taking photographs of her in the condition you described. That would have been the most intelligent and reasonable thing to do.

For someone who put so much into the mistreatment of Dorothy, I can’t seriously believe that it would not occur to you to show the world what really goes on in the FoF. You had all the proof in the world delivered to your doorstep. And if your statements were true you would have shared that proof with everyone.

"Elena" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, November 17, 2008:

Hello Cardiacs [above],

I’ll answer you sentence by sentence since that’ll make it precise enough even if the post looks outrageously long.

DC [Daily Cardiac]: The FoF offers one product, and that is presence/self-remembering. So it’s a question of priorties. If someone values presence over the form that contains presence then esoteric schools make sense and are even vital for those individuals. If someone does not value presence above everything else then schools make no sense. Being in a school of presence and not putting presence first is the worst case scenario, as the higher in one will not be fed nor will the lower.

Based on my own experiences those who value presence first thrive in the school. That does not mean they agree with everything or understand everything that goes on; it just means their priorities are in order for them to succeed spiritually.

I wonder what the judge will say when you tell him that! When a lawyer asks a hundred of you, “What were you present to while members sent photos of young men to Mr. Burton? While these men were given priority visas? While they were dresses like Barbies? While they battered their wives and said nothing would happen to them because they were in Mr. Burton’s inner circle?”

What will you say then?

If the priorities of the Fellowship of Friends act against the well being of its members and causes harm on hundreds of people economically, sexually, emotionally and intellectually, the priorities of the FOF are against everything that the Constitution of the United States stands for. You cannot take a group of people and take all their rights out and pretend that after years of submitting to mental and physical control they can respond for their acts. It is not the members who are responsible for their acts, it is principally the Cult leader and the Inner Circle of the Cult who is responsible.

DC: I’ve been listening to people’s thoughts on the blog and answering from my heart, that the main disconnect with ex members is that they do not consider or respect the needs and laws of the spirit world. They do not get the scale correct, they do not distinguish between the different scales/levels.They do not remember that spirit supersedes matter and thought,is greater than matter and thought; and must be given priority over matter and thought.

You can expand on that one, it is still very weak. I don’t think you’ll get by with it with anyone serious enough. I do not expect you to believe my beliefs either but just in case you wish to listen to them, the Spiritual World is based on the grace of its beings. No being who is above in the Hierarchy can hurt anyone who is above or below. We are all helping each other. We are all, even in this physical realm, helping each other. The different dimensions are interconnected. To serve is to help without doing harm. You cannot harm and help at the same time and the Fellowship Cult only harms.

DC: Elena – “Could you, Mr. Robert Burton, or any of his followers, explain how separating mothers from their children is an expression of Consciousness?”

This can be an expression of consciousness when it is determined to be what’s best for the mother’s spiritual evolution, or for the school’s evolution.

Generally children have not formed a magnetic center and are not ready to engage in a life dedicated to self remembering. These same issues probably came up in other schools and will again in future schools.

How cheap, tell the judges that. You better get more specific or you’re all going to end up in jail.

DC: Actually the fact that Robert did not allow children in the school is one proof the FoF is not a cult.

Robert Burton did allow children in the School but only under certain conditions and those conditions neglected the children’s and the parent’s well being. They neglected the integrity of the family.

He only just recently tried to invite a member’s son who I think is not even eighteen to work at the Galleria when he found him young enough and probably thinking that his father had been such a good treat, he would allow his divine Teacher to taste his son too, after all, he wasn’t even his son was he, he was adopted. Fortunately the member left the Cult in horror.

DC: Cults are quite happy to absorb children into the fold as it’s a good age to be indoctrinated.

In most of the cases of mothers relinquishing care of their children to family or spouses it has not been determined if anyone, mothers or children, were really harmed by this exercise.

You probably weren’t there when K would scream up and down the corridors of the London center because of the situation with the children that she had abandoned. You probably weren’t there when the other lady cried for months because the child she’d given up for adoption twenty or more years before had cancer and it was the first time that she was going to see her. How would you be there when you are desperately trying to not be present to reality?

There are things that no spiritual path would ask of a human being unless it is one of black magic. I dare say that you are all too stupid to even be intentional black magicians (for which I am grateful and do not judge you harder) but the carelessness of your lives runs so close to darkness that it is just a line away from black. Your practices are dark as hell. There are members who sit quietly outside the blog, who sincerely claim that Mr. Burton’s intense swallowing of semen, between six and sixteen times a day, have been quoted, are directly connected with black magic practices. I personally do not think that Girard Haven or other members are consciously practicing such things even if the things they practice or allow Robert Burton to practice are so dark, that they could very well be black.

DC. For one thing this exercise was part of the school’s early years, and has not happened, that I know of, for close to 30 years.

Your eyes are so closed you think abandoning children is just the act of giving them away but children were not allowed in the Fellowship until late nineteen ninety five or so. That is twenty five years after the Fellowship began to function. When I joined in 1990 and moved to Renaissance in 1992, my children were not allowed which gradually implanted in my psychology a permissiveness to separate from them. I left my eldest daughter in a boarding school and my youngest I eventually left her with her father when she was eleven. This is the worst mistake I have ever made in my life prompted by the attitude the Fellowship of Friends Cult had on the biological connection of families. My children were all the family I had and I gave them up for years. The rest of my family had broken apart badly since my mother’s death. The FOF took the System’s ideas and distorted them until it ruined our lives. RUINED OUR LIVES. The fact that we will heal and learn and overcome the damages one day, does not mean that having participated in The Fellowship of Friends Cult did not ruin too huge a portion of my life to let it continue ruining other people’s. I beg forgiveness to my children and my family for the damages I brought to their lives in my blindness to belong to the Fellowship. It made me look at the sacred connection between us as something I could relax and let go of and we are, my younger daughter and I, still years away from healing from it. I am responsible for having left her, but the Fellowship is responsible for having induced me into leaving her. I swear to God, you will not continue to do these things to people with the same freedom you’ve been doing it for years.

I could write a book about this, why don’t I since you can’t see it.

Children are still banned from the Fellowship life and the Fellowship is NOT A SCHOOL, IT IS A COMMUNITY OF SLAVES WORKING FOR ROBERT BURTON’S BROTHEL. Children are banned “psychologically”. They are made to feel that they do not belong there, that they are biological accidents in their parent’s lives, that they are in fact a burden rather than a joy. Oh Daily Cardiac and company, how many times do you want me to write Heather’s story? Eileen’s story? Why were these children abandoned until they committed suicide? Why did Heather’s mother never take her into her house even after she tried to commit suicide three times? At least I knew enough about suicide to know that she had to be thoroughly and totally embraced. Why did Eileen come begging for help after being an alcoholic and did not get it from her father’s community and was so lost, so fucking lost that she opted to drive herself into a light post because there was no light at the other end of life?

Please help, please help these people get out of their madness, please help yourselves to a more dignified life.

You could say that Dorothy, Eileen and Heather are just a few people, the exception to the rule but they are not: They are the physical expression of the extreme to which the attitude of a community can bring their members to. Each one of these people is the result of the Fellowship credo, the Fellowship ideology, the Fellowship Way of life and in every one of these cases the results are simply put, PERFECTLY INHUMAN: they are the acts of people in a mind control environment that distorts their inner being so badly that they are willing to hurt children and old people.

DC: Now what really did happen in most cases? It’s not like people left their babies on a stranger’s doorstep. Possibly in all cases the children went to live with grandparents or the father.

Do you know how much this happens in today’s world, how many mothers willingly give their children to a spouse or family? Do you know how many young couples give their children to their parents to raise while they pursue a career. Sometimes both parents have to work and they have no choice. Where is the brutality in this?

Life might be brutal but the Fellowship is criminal.

DC: What was Apollo like then? It was a thicket of brush with two dilapidated buildings. People lived in tents exclusively on FoF property, worked 12 + hours, 7 days a week. Is this an environment for children? On one level Robert was being humane for not allowing children on the property back then.

For how long do you want me to laugh at your reasoning, you sick pimp. IT WAS ROBERT BURTON’S CHOICE TO TAKE THE MEMBERS OF THE FELLOWSHIP INTO AN ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH CHILDREN NEEDED TO BE BANNED FOR THEIR APPARENT WELL BEING. IT WAS HIS CHOICE TO PUT THEM UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS. IT IS HE WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THE MEMBERS COMMIT SUCH ACTS THAT gradually made them into the pitiful human beings that all those poor women in the high ranks of the Fellowship Cult have become who, having abandoned their children, now think it is rather amusing to have other people’s children get systematically raped by the same man who asked them to abandon their own. Tell me if most of the “survivors” of the oldest generation today are not precisely those who made such drastic sacrifices in their lives? What makes it so difficult for you to put one and one together? What makes you think that these women who abandoned their children are not those who are in fact in power in the Fellowship and promote the seduction and brainwashing of those young men into THE LEGITIMACY OF Robert’s abuses, they have to do it because it justifies their own sacrifices. If Robert is wrong, who will forgive them for what they did to themselves? And their children? Every single member of the Fellowship of Friends who remained inside after those things happened was no longer a normal human being. They had each tresspassed the boundaries of human sanity. Even at war, no human society has ever sacrificed its own children or old people. The Fellowship Cult is not only not a Conscious School, it is the most retrograde expression of Consciousness of all times. The dysfunctionality of the Fellowship of Friends is so corrosive that the traces of humaneness has disappeared.

Daily Cardiac:

As far as separating:

“Members from their families,
Member’s from their cultures,
Members from their previous friends,
Members from their functions,Members from their bodies, their minds, their emotions and their sexuality?”

People made personal choices.

People do not make personal choices under situations of mind control. Girard Haven’s books are systematic mind control bibles. Those holy scriptures of the Fellowship of Friends will prove in any court of law, how the Fellowship of Friends indoctrinated its members. I can open any page and find the dogma separating people from their own consciousness.

DC. All of the above happens in life on a routine basis to tens of millions of people.
How many students were helped out of a third world country by the FoF?

Tell us how many if you know. Tell us how many young men under twenty five were helped and not other people. I dare you give us the numbers. Tell us how it used the musicians and exploited them so that they could not get proper jobs. Tell us everything or you will eventually tell the court. We will know sooner or later, because we need to know.

DC: How many were overjoyed for the opportunity. Many of them are ex students today, still enjoying the freedoms they gained as a result of them being in the FoF. How many foreigners married Americans through the FoF and made a new life for themselves here?

Life? Is that what you call life? Have you in fact forgotten that for the Fellowship of Friends LIFE is influence A, something a member should never touch so that he can be at the disposition of Influence C every time Robert wishes to have sex or have enough money to take his whores on a trip where he can bribe them more easily?

DC: You have spoken of abortions in the past, supposedly prompted by Robert. It’s easy to make claims but how are the claims substantiated? I’ve never heard anyone’s name mentioned in that regard? And if names are mentioned what does it prove? Abortion is legal. It is legal by society’s law. Morally/spiritually we don’t know for sure when the soul comes into the fetus. But I would think an all knowing and compassionate deity would monitor and consider well the needs of unborn infants, and not leave the fate of a soul in the hands of men.

There will be names, you can be sure of that. For the past eighteen years people have been helping many of the women who were in a relationship with one of Robert’s boys, abort. Many, many women and one of them will come forward and speak against you and tell us how it worked. Hell is black enough that you can’t hide it in daylight. I won’t give you their names but I know who I am talking about.

DC: It can however be proven how many lives the FoF is directly responsible for helping to bring into the world. How many children were conceived by students who would never have met each other without joining the FoF? Is it fair to say these individuals, and their parents, owe a debt of gratitude to the FoF? How many of these children of students/ex students are there? Hundreds, and each one verifiable; their existence not a question of debate.

The irony of your statement makes it even more repulsive.

DC: How many viable careers were formed through training received in the FoF? Do any or all of these things count as good fortune arising from participation in the Fellowship of Friends?

Tell us how many and who profitted from these careers? How many of Robert’s boys in proportion to others? How and why were those people who were helped, helped?. Why don’t you explain why the rest of us weren’t even given a chance to speak.

DC: As far as separating from previous friends, I wonder what percentage of previous friends remain in the average person’s life?

People in life constantly turn their backs on previous friends by changing schools, growing up, changing jobs, cities, spouses.

How many millions of people disown their parents and siblings, entirely without the help of the FoF? Gurjieff [sic] said about our world that it’s a pain factory.

As I said, life might be brutal but the Fellowship is criminal and it will have to respond for its crimes. Lucky you that I am persecuting you before you actually kill someone, although for me you actually killed Dorothy, I simply saved her. In fact, for me, you killed Heather and Eileen, and I helped Heather enough and unfortunately was not able to help Eileen because I was myself too weak. And you certainly killed Joseph Monteleone with your repulsive neglect of Fellowship members in any kind of suffering. Yes, there are exceptions like Tamara who after making a film showing the wonders of Divine Robert was sent to Springs….. to suffer less, but tell me how this exceptions do not prove our points, not yours.

DC: Suffering exists in every corner of the world; independent of the FoF.
Why focus your complaints on a measly 1700 people?

Because you are the people I loved and trusted and invested my intellectual, emotional and economic resources in for seventeen years. Because you are responsible for ruining a beautiful portion of my life and because knowing what I know I will not let you continue doing what you do, just like I would take a rapist to the police if I was able to catch him. And I have caught you. I know you better than I know the palm of my hands.

DC: And who precisely are you complaining to? A deity? Do you think they haven’t heard you by now? Do you think they have somehow lost track of this notorious organization run by a sociopath impersonating themselves for the last 40 years? And if not to a Deity then to whom? A government? Robert Burton has not broken any laws.

Robert Burton has broken every human law of decency, integrity and respect for each and all the members of the Fellowship Cult. He has broken innumerable Constitutional Laws with the Fraudulent presentation of the Fellowship of Friends Cult as a School of Consciousness. If the Fellowship of Friends were not a fraud you would have sued me from the moment I began speaking and you have not sued me only because you know you cannot prove me wrong. If the laws today protect Cults like you, the laws must be changed so I am appealing to the people who can see what is right beyond the law. The laws are written to protect people from abuse and when criminals like you make up new forms of abuse, protected by the laws, the laws must be changed to protect the people, from people like you.

DC: The FoF is a rape factory? One of the many ironies of the blog is that ex members fail to consider the spiritual realm and point to Robert’s failings based on ordinary man’s moral code, but when it comes to rape, they disregard what constitutes rape in the eyes of most governments, and more importantly, in the eyes of reasonable men using common sense, and invent their own laws when judging Robert Burton.

Under mind control environments, inducing young men in socio-economic disadvantages to sexually submit to the authority of the institution is RAPE. These men are not in an ordinary environment.

DC: Abuse of power? This is indeed a mighty joke. What individual with even modest power has not abused it at one time or another? In sexual matters has there ever been a rich, or famous man who has not tried to use his wealth or status for his own enjoyment?

Has there ever been a beautiful woman who has not used her beauty to manipulate men? I’m sure there have been exceptions to the rule. But as a rule people use their status to get what they want.

In terms of conscious teachers and sex, it’s a much more complex issue. No one knows Robert Burton’s motives in that regard.

Abuse of power not only with the men who had to submit sexually but to every single member who had to pay for it convinced that she/he was supporting a School of Consciousness and not a sophisticated brothel.

Good! Why don’t we let Robert tell the judges what his motives were? Maybe they’ll like it sweet!

DC: To be conscious implies having will, and if one has will one can apply that will when and where necessary. Conscious teachers can also use their status for any reason they deem appropriate to higher aims (Conscious beings live for themselves, but they also are in service to higher schools first and foremost.)

Yes, being conscious implies having the will to not hurt people who have been rendered defenseless in a mind control environment. “DEFENSELESS” IN A MIND CONTROL ENVIRONMENT PROPER OF A CULT LIKE THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS. IF THE ARMS OF YOUR INTEGRITY ARE MADE TO BE SURRENDERED WHEN YOU ENTER THE CULT, YOU ARE MADE DEFENSELESS AND THAT IS WHY EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US SACRIFICED MORE THAN WE CAN EVER RECOVER. We were made “defenseless” because we were stripped of our psychological make up in disconnecting us from our references and submitting us to the Fellowship references that we had to adopt to survive within that environment just like any person who is kidnapped willingly submits to the kidnappers. We were not kidnapped but we were indoctrinated to believe that salvation was only possible in the Fellowship, that war was imminent, that leaving meant the death of our possibilities.

PLEASE DON’T LET OTHER PEOPLE GO THROUGH THIS SAME GRINDER.

DC: There is one thing I have understood in this area and that is the majority of reasoning I read on the blog by ex members would not fit into today’s FoF.

Today’s FOF is not the FOF of the past thirty five years or the FOF of the future. Today’s FOF is a Cult trying to save a few members under desperate conditions. All the “good” changes you’ve made today will succumb as soon as you are left without pressure and you will return to your favorite bad habits or priorities which are making money for the brothel and pimpimg for mummy Bobby.

DC: So if Robert’s lifestyle is being used as a tool by higher forces to force people’s hand on whether to stay or go, I can see it’s an effective tool.

Those who manage to keep presence as the top priority have stayed, while those who have placed something above being present (I think of Old Fish’s list of joyful things) have departed.

Try giving the judges that answer dear and they’ll wonder if they are in a Court room or in a Latin soap opera!

DC: Elena, I am also certain of another fact. You have already condemned Robert Burton and the FoF. Nothing anyone says will change that. And any information you hear, no matter how factual and / or positive will have to be turned around in your mind and made into whatever fits your extreme position.

You’re right, you cannot change the facts now. Everything that has been presented here by members and exmembers has deeply supported my claims against the Fellowship of Friends Cult. It is not I who will change my position, it is you who will disappear as a legal institution to defraud innocent people from every corner of the world.

DC: That being the case can anyone believe the things you say about Girard, or Dorothy? With all of the hate you have displayed on the blog can you be impartial about what you experienced, or have you molded those experiences into whatever fits your preexisting position.

Anyone in their right mind can easily recognize that what you call “hate” in me is suffering and that I am in fact the one who has opted for non violent actions against the Fellowship. Legal and moral or ethical action but non violent, inspired by the same Ghandi your “beloved conscious teacher” despises so badly.

DC: Regarding Dorothy I have visited homes where she lived after she was in an advanced stage of her disease and I saw her to be well cared for. I know the the people who cared for her and they certainly don’t fit your profile of Dorothy’s caregivers.

Do you want me to give more names and details? I will in court. Dorothy had not been bathed for a year when I volunteered to look after her for the second time thoughout various years. She had not been given a bath and she stunk. Her nails were like a fakirs nails they were so long and black in dirt. She walked around with a doll who no one else could touch because she screamed and ate five loafs of bread a weak because her caretaker said she did not have enough money for more decent food. How many times do you wish me to tell you this story.

DC: One of Dorothy’s last requests when she was still in control of her thought processes was to live the remainder of her days at Apollo. The school made good on her request.

All those are lies. Janet asked Robert what to do with Dorothy when her alzheimer was in its early development and Robert told her to send Dorothy to a home. Janet who was Dorothy’s best friend was not able to do so and carried on her back the load of taking care of Dorothy on her own for years. When the situation got bad enough volunteers without payment were required. When it got worse, paid caretakers were required and when it got even worse she was dumped at my door with a “call me when she dies” and not one of the six high rank women of the Fellowship who had been carefully feeding her mostly bread for the past year, offered to look after her for even one hour a month. One of them personally told me, it was not right to have Dorothy in the Fellowship any more, she had to go to a home and therefore she would no longer help.

DC: Dorothy was not the FoF’s responsibility to care for.

Tell me you sick criminals, if the FOF induces members and actually induced Dorothy into leaving her son with her mother and disconnect her from her family, who is responsible for the old people of the Fellowship if not the Fellowship itself? Tell me, what kind of School is this that simply uses people until they are helpless and then discards them because they are no longer its responsibility? Who if not the Fellowship of Friends is responsible for an 84 year old woman with Alzheimer’s who has been a member for over thirty years? What in your sick mind, makes you think that a human being who has worked to support her community for thirty years does not have the right to be cared for by that community, when that same community induced her into disconnecting from her family and people outside of the community? If the Fellowship Cult thinks that people outside of the Cult are sleep, dead, unconscious beings, why is it so willing to throw its members out into the hands of those people, when the members become helpless? If it were as conscious as it claims to be, would it not be coherent enough to protect at least its most disabled members from the people outside of it, who, it claims, are the six billion dead or sleep people on the planet?

DC: If the school is as heartless as you characterize, it could have easily put her into a car and drove her to her son’s house in L.A., knocked on his door and said here she is, she’s your responsibility, not ours. But that did not happen.

The irony of your response makes me puke for the second time in this post. After separating Dorothy and her son, with what face would you show up to his house and tell him that she was his responsibility? But you’re lying, he had stopped seeing her for ten years before she died, their relationship had not been good ever and no one knew where he was. But the saddest thing about this story is that in the deep mist of her alzheimer the only person who Dorothy still held dear to her consciousness was her son who she would ask about minute after minute forgetting she had asked about him the minute before and we would tell her that he worked in San Francisco and that he was alright. Then she’d ask again.

DC: On more that one occasion you said when you received Dorothy into your care she had not taken a bath for over a year and her fingernails were inches long and packed with dirt.

This statement is highly suspect. It does not fit human behavior. Even if those people neglected Dorothy, they would not jeopardize their reputation by giving her to you in that condition. Most people would, if nothing else, inner consider too much or would be in too much vanity to allow someone to know the degree of their irresponsibility.

If a friend calls me unexpectedly on the phone and says he or she is on the way to see me, I will probably do a little tidying up, wash a dish or two, pick up my socks off the floor, because I want not to be thought a slob. This is human nature. What you say makes no sense at all. Almost anyone would cover up that kind of neglect.

Yes, any normal human being would have done those things but we’re talking about Fellowship of Friends members who got used to abandoning children and raping men in their twenties who couldn’t be “touched” by an old woman slowly dying in the most heartbraking isolation. They went to look after her and sat doing their work on the computer, or reading their book because the attitude that they expressed, including Mr. Haven’s in a letter to me, was that Dorothy was a useless, mindless “shell”. They thought she was worth looking after only as long as she didn’t actually require attention!!!! Only as long as she didn’t need to be touched, helped, made to move, do a little exercise so that the body would not pain her to death in a bed and the skin would not rot in the sheets. All these things were needed for a member of the Fellowship of Friends who had paid for thirty five years and instead they drugged her and starved her until she began having seizures so bad that they justified giving her hal dol and other extreme drugs that would kill that body over the weekend and Janet did not allow it because she knew and she knew that I knew and that I was extremely afraid something like that could happen. She could not bare her own conscience, THANK GOD.

DC: Also knowing how you felt at the time from your own writings, I can’t believe you would not have documented Dorothy’s condition by taking photographs of her in the condition you described. That would have been the most intelligent and reasonable thing to do.

I have photographs of Dorothy in each of those periods, in fact I have videos of her. The most difficult picture of her is with her doll. The only connection to love that she had during that period.

DC: For someone who put so much into the mistreatment of Dorothy, I can’t seriously believe that it would not occur to you to show the world what really goes on in the FoF. You had all the proof in the world delivered to your doorstep. And if your statements were true you would have shared that proof with everyone.

I did not put so much into the mistreatment of Dorothy, only you put that into the octave. I was no saint though. I did my best, but Dorothy and I fought like dogs every once in a while and everyday I would have to force her to get her into bed because she wanted to sleep in the chair where she’d been resting at the end of the day. Nothing was easy during those three years for either one of us, but we bonded with each other for eternity. May she forgive me for every time I was too tired or too weak to be more patient. Taming a mad dog is not a far off analogy to the condition in which Dorothy was brought to me. From an old woman with alzheimer’s in strong physical condition, in three months she was rendered a crazy, violent, drugged piece of meat that could not even stand when she was left at my door. I had to carry her in because Janet just walked away as she said, “call me when she dies”. Indeed, she came only a few times during those three years but I will defend Janet in any court because in the end she too knew that the Fellowship was humanless as she states in a letter after a confrontation with Linda.

I was much tempted to go to the police but at that point I still believed in Robert Burton and had not connected all the threads that I was able to connect after three years of looking after her and directly experiencing the attitudes of the Fellowship and Robert towards its members. At the time I held the caretakers responsible, not the Fellowship and since the Fellowship was to me still the School of Consciousness, I was called upon to assume responsibility for what I thought consciousness was and therefore, assumed the job of taking care of a Fellowship member, not because it was my job or because I had been trained as a nurse or because I did not have enough in my hands serving my disabled husband, but because as a member of a Conscious School I felt that it was OUR responsibility to take care of OUR members and if no one else was able to do the job, I was willing to do it. As the wife of the Second in Command of the Fellowship I felt it was my responsibility to assume the problem. I did it for three years, twenty four hours a day and every time I went on a teaching trip with Girard, Dorothy regressed terribly, except when Elizabeth took care of her: a trained nurse with a lifetime of experience. Agnes was also good.

WHY WAS THERE NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN “THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS CONSCIOUS SCHOOL OF AWAKENING” TO HIRE A TRAINED NURSE AND THERAPISTS TO RENDER A THIRTY THREE YEAR OLD MEMBER A LOVING DESCENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE BEYOND.

TELL ME YOU SICK CRIMINALS, IN THE NAME OF WHAT GOD DO YOU SPEND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ON EACH OF ROBERT’S UNDERWEAR AND ARE NOT WILLING TO PAY FOR A NURSE FOR YOUR HELPLESS MEMBERS?

Tell me, where is the dignity or the consciousness in having one of your members die like a pig on bread and drugs while hords of dandys walk up and down the corridors of the Galleria exposing the outrageous expense of their clothing?

Your arguments Daily Cardiac defy common sense and while you and the rest of the members might have lost it completely, you still belong to a world that will demand it of you. When you confront Robert Burton’s expenses in a court of law with these outrageous human offenses, you will not find one judge in your favour. I long for the day in which you no longer exist for your own well being and humanity’s.

"Draco" wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, December 8, 2008:

DC 55/122 ["Daily Cardiac", above]

ABORTION

DC: “You have spoken of abortions in the past, supposedly prompted by Robert. It’s easy to make claims but how are the claims substantiated? I’ve never heard anyone’s name mentioned in that regard?” = I DON’T BELIEVE IT

DC: “And if names are mentioned what does it prove? Abortion is legal. It is legal by society’s law. Morally/spiritually we don’t know for sure when the soul comes into the fetus. But I would think an all knowing and compassionate deity would monitor and consider well the needs of unborn infants, and not leave the fate of a soul in the hands of men.” = SO WHAT?

Do people give first-hand accounts of these things? I wasn’t there. I don’t believe it. Were foetuses aborted? So what? There’ll be other babies. If the potential parents leave the Fellowship, so what? There will be other fertile couples joining.

——–

When I got pregnant I was leaving at Renaissance and my husband was on salary. We did not have the money to go to a doctor and were worried about future hospital bills.

My husband called Robert, but not until years later did he tell me what the teacher had said in response to a request for financial help for the birth, namely, that we had missed an opportunity to oppose our catholic upbring by not having an abortion.

A student on salary with family later suggested we go to County Health Services. Fortunately I had excellent care.

BTW our child is an absolute delight, a gift beyond measure.

16/282/vera.mente

—————

I knew of a visit from Fran, an older women, who was sent to escort a happily married women to a hospital for a late term abortion of healthy twins. Why was this married student in a happy relationship guided to go to the hospital to abort two healthy fetuses? Robert loved the beautiful, handsome husband and it was during the mid/late 70s when the School could not afford to have students be distracted by the emotional or expensive aspects of children.

This potential mother and father were in in pain but followed Robert’s directives – it was not a pretty situation. Years later Robert got his guy back and the wife was left to earn money outside of Renaissance while her husband was on salary.

16/284/A Former female student from long ago

————————–

I loved James G. my first boyfriend in the fof, mid-70’s. We lived in a teepee up the hill with a red couch and carpets. James was a poet, a sweet gentle man who went head to head with Robert. I remember my confusion when I realized I was competing with my teacher for the affection of my boyfriend. Confusion, sadness, anger, uncomprehending shock. James left the group and I regret that I cannot access more clearly what happened. There is so much shame mixed in with the excitement of having found a “school of evolution”. I’m sure I did not talk about the shameful parts and just moved on with the “evolution” parts.

Being a female “second class citizen”, I settled for “second-best” closeness to rb, by getting involved with Thomas E. There was a big triangular struggle going on there, too, but again, the shame shrouding the situation did not allow us to talk openly about it and I remember just being very confused. Thomas and I fought often about it and eventually moved farther and farther apart. I remember calling him from the pay phone in the Lodge while he was traveling with rb to tell him I was pregnant and him telling me to just take care of it. I knew it wasn’t wanted, by him, by me, by Robert, so was shortly thereafter driven to Yuba City by Fran for an abortion. I know I’m leaving out the next chapter, but one step at a time.

I had permission to play the piano in the Goethe Academy during lunch when no one was there. It was one of the happiest hours of my days. When Robert would come smilingly back after lunch in the company of those from his entourage, his face would fall upon seeing me, and although it is not exactly the reptilian conversion Cyclops referred to in his powerful post above, that look of revulsion, disappointment, annoyance was one that I and many other women were on the receiving end on many occasions.

One other memory from my days of a woman in the company of men around the Blake Cottage/Goethe Academy was sadly watching while RB walked around and around the outside perimeter of the lawn trying to convince one of his wonderful young men that he and his lovely girlfriend/or wife, can’t remember the timing, must not have a child, and that in fact they must have an abortion. I had an opportunity to see this sad childless couple years later (when I was “out” and they still “in” thus we didn’t converse) and my heart has always gone out to them.
My tears are for you, Whalerider, Cyclops, THAT GIRL, Joseph G., Richard M, Elena, and many others who lost faith in themselves, were deceived, coerced, had abortions, gave their children away, shared their husbands with another, for all the suffering you experienced. They are for me, for the teenager I once was, for the world I’m leaving to my children. May tears of joy fall once again on us all.

16/447/If Memory Serves

—————————–

Rules about children caused a lot of emotional trouble. Burton’s suggestion was to wait 5 years after marriage to have children, and sometimes that’s a nice idea that doesn’t work. Burton told the hierarcy of the group to tell these people to have abortions if the “timing” was wrong! They did, and women had abortions!

Linda who worked closely with the teacher told us in Amsterdam in 1980 that she was “only following orders” when she told women members to have abortions! (She was a member since the early 1970s, and still is as far as we know.)

Burton wanted children to be a certain age at Armageddon, for which he claimed, “I will bridge the gap for humanity at Armageddon.”

http://geocities.com/stella_wirk/new1a.html

————————

“When m & i lived at Kevin K’s house we were your “next-door” neighbors. i know that m developed a friendship with you and your wife during that phase but didn’t know that she had confided in you about the terror of her situation… it makes sense that she would turn to you and “your m” with the problem she faced.

“my m” fought valiantly against the power that was forcing her to act against her will. she fought it the only way she could, mostly with tears and verbal protestations. but there was little sympathy for her plight since it was the will of “the teacher” that she abort the pregnancy. Sharon s, Linda, and other Robert Burton puppets were brought in to arrange the operation in L.A. and to try to convince m that the abortion was the right thing to do…

the explanation from the horse’s ass had something to do with the timing of the pregnancy, that the child would not be born on “the ark.” what outrageous bullshit!!! “the teacher” rationalized the whole thing based on the dire “prophecies” which at the time i believed… now i see that the predictions were nothing more than fear-mongering and another means of mind-control.

i’m not a “right-to-lifer” by any means, i believe it’s a woman’s right to choose what to do in the case of pregnancy. but given the situation and circumstances, m had no choice! she was coerced from the beginning, and i blame myself for this…. we should have just fled the scene then and there, but i was deeply brain-washed.

I’ve written previously that my “suspicion” at the time concerning the motivation behind the whole thing was jealous revenge… i left the academy and married m (you took the pictures of our wedding there at renaissance). i mentioned in a previous post that i went to miles with my concerns and suspicions — the next “conscious being” and already almost man # 5… what absolute rubbish!! i found no support from him, he backed “the teacher.” as a “task” from the teacher, i thought it was essential to convince m that it was the right thing to do…. i was just another “little eichman.”

this is stuff that’s been buried for a long time and it’s heart-rending to re-live… it makes me feel physically ill.

I was there at the hospital holding her hand after the abortion, trying to console her… (what a colossal fool i am), she could not be consoled, any words i might have uttered went unheard. the intent of the abortion worked as planned — by siding with “the teacher” i destroyed my wife’s trust in me and too, the marriage. I’ve written before, that my complicity in this criminal act is personally THE most damning event of my Fellowship of Friends experience. it’s a sin i’ve lived with for many years and i’ll go to my grave with it… there’s hell to pay. i loathe myself for my part in it and i have to wonder how a human being responsible for this situation many times over can possibly live with “itself” ?!? it’s completely monstrous!

in other posts, i’ve briefly sketched my difficulties when i left the fof… i lived a dissolute and self-destructive life, i slept on the pavement at night and aimlessly wandered the streets by day, like “wind along the waste.” later i realized that this was the manifestation of a strong death-wish, the humiliation of that kick-in-the balls courtesy of “the teacher” completely destroyed my will to live and i can say now, “but for the grace of god” and the loving support of a few earth-angels, i should be already, a long time in the grave.

thank you for listening to my story

[posted by 'ton]

[ed. - See also: At Robert Burton's command, a child is sacrificed.]